Christian Identity and The Flat Earth
The news of the flat earth has really been making the rounds on the internet with 10s of thousands and even 100s of thousands of views on YouTube flat earth videos. This has caught the attention of the owner of the biggest Christian Identity website (www.christogenea.org ) William Finck.
First, if you haven’t heard about the flat earth argument, I highly recommend that you do a search on YouTube for: “flat earth Eric Dubay” or “flat earth clues.” Watch the videos you’ll understand more about what this article is about. Eric Dubay and Mark Sargent are the two people that William Finck talks about.
Hopefully you have watched two videos in your search for flat earth; let’s continue with what Finck said about it. You can find the full audio (from which this article is taken) at this link:
I will comment on what Bill Finck talked about and will, for the most part, make it in the order he presented his arguments. Most of the arguments Finck makes will be paraphrased here unless you see it in quotes. With that in mind, let’s begin…
The flat earth has no place at all in Christian Identity (CI)
Oh really? Since the flat earth is about God’s creation, why wouldn’t it be part of a CI discussion?
“No matter what shape of the earth is, it has no bearing on the state of our people.”
Oh really? Did Finck forget about the quote (that many CI use themselves) of, “My people are destroyed for a lack of knowledge…(Hosea 4:6) My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge: because thou hast rejected knowledge, I will also reject thee, that thou shalt be no priest to me: seeing thou hast forgotten the law of thy God, I will also forget thy children.
“It has no bearing on what is happening to Christians today.”
It has a lot of bearing on what is happening today, part of which is being kept in ignorance.
Finck goes on to say that, “Round, flat, baseball, cube or baseball bat, it (shape of the earth) doesn’t matter.” Then he adds right after this in his Podcast, that it is being disconnected from our reality; Christian Identity should not get involved in it at all.
I see an oxymoron in the above two sentences and Finck doesn’t even see this. He says it doesn’t matter what shape the earth is, and follows it with, we would be disconnected with reality if we do. If you don’t care shape the earth is, or believe that its a globe and it’s really not, that is being disconnected with reality.
Bill goes on to say, “We don’t give a damn if the earth is Petri dish, a pancake or what have you; we don’t care.”
I say, “Speak for yourself Bill Finck!” The Bible criticises those who remain “wilfully ignorant,” and this is the case with Bill and those who follow him. He goes on to say that we won’t be able to get the Christian Identity message across if we talk about the flat earth.
How does Finck figure this? First, if the person is already CI, they already have the CI truth, so what’s the problem? If the person doesn’t know about Christian Identity, it doesn’t matter – as you should talk on only one issue at a time. If you meet someone and they are not even a Christian but you talk to him/her on the flat earth, they only hear this. If they come to believe it, at a later date, at another meeting you talk about the CI message. Or, you can talk on another message until that person is ready for more Bible truths.
Bill talks about Eric Dubay being “a possible Jew.” There is no proof that Dubay is a Jew so why accuse him of it. This is typical of what some of our people do – sadly to say – is if they come across anyone they disagree with they accuse that person of being a Jew; sometimes they say he’s a homosexual. This is nothing but mud-slinging. However, what Dubay is, that Finck didn’t mention is that he’s not a Christian. He does believe in a creator God but doesn’t believe in the Bible. However, this doesn’t mean that what Dubay says about the earth is wrong.
One thing I do agree with Bill Finck on is that Dubay copied most of his flat earth book on what a guy by the name of William Carpenter wrote nearly 100 years ago, titled: 100 Proofs That the Earth is Flat. Dubay just added 100 more proofs to bring the total up to 200. Also, that Eric Dubay didn’t give credit to Carpenter and that a lot of proofs he added is duplicated but looking at it from a different angle. This, Finck is correct in pointing out.
As a side note, you can by law reprint a book that is beyond copyright protection and make money on it. If you make your own intro, for example, you can publish it as your own and you have a right to make money on – but this is another issue.
Finck goes on to say that by talking about the flat earth we could be muddying the waters by associating the flat earth with holocaust revisionism; that it would discredit holocaust revisionism.
For those who are not familiar with holocaust revisionism, what this is, is about people who have investigated the “gassing of 6 million Jews” as not being true. Basically, what Finck is implying is, if you have info about holocaust revisionism and people see this info (presumably on your website) and they see information about the flat earth, people will say, “Look at those nuts, they believe in the flat earth.” Then the people will discredit all things you have. They will not believe or take time to read about holocaust revisionism, Christian Identity message or anything else. Well, this argument is not true. Again, as when you talk to someone you introduce one topic at a time.
Even if you just have two topics on your blog: 1 – Christian Identity, and 2 – Holocaust revisionism, a person can be “turned off” by seeing holocaust deniers, and not read the CI message because of the holocaust deniers. In short, it’s the chance you have to take. The public is told that those who do not accept the 6 million gassing are haters, nazis, and anti-Semites, then to hear anything about CI.
Bill goes on to say when someone comes across the holocaust site and sees flat earth; CI who promote flat earth non-sense discredits CI.
Yet, if you look at Bill’s site ( christogenea.org ) he has some info there about holocaust revisonism. Does he think that when people see this they don’t think that Bill is a “nutter” that the Christian Identity people are a “nutter” that it “muddles the waters,” as they believe that 6 million were not gassed. This is the chance you have to take. Is Finck wrong in putting this on his website? Is he wrong in putting something on his website that is not directly related to Christian Identity? Of course not – he should have this on his site. Why? Because is shows what the Jews are up to. HOWEVER, he should not criticised those who put flat earth information on a blog along with CI material. In short, be consistent Finck! There are people, because of media propaganda, put in the same class those who deny the holocaust 6 million jews gassed with the flat earthers. In short, in many peoples’ eyes they are both “nutters,” yet Finck seems to think that holocast denying is much better to tell others about but not flat earth theory.
One of Finck’s “proofs that the earth is a globe” is taken from Dubay’s book on “200 Proofs” is point #45. Number 45 is what Dubay says you have to fly to some point north if you want to fly from Johannesburg, South Africa to Australia. Finck claims that he found a website where you can fly from Perth Australia to South Africa directly without going north and the time is 11 hours 30 minutes. But you can also fly north and go to S.A., which will take about 23 hours. What I say to Finck is this, “Have you tried to buy a ticket?” This is part of the deception, they will put something like this on a website but when you go to buy the ticket you’ll find out that you do, indeed have to fly north. Bill, doesn’t this tell you there is a cover up? Doesn’t it tell you, dear reader, that there is a cover up? It sure tells me.
Side Note: For those who want to know what importance this has, let me explain. With the earth being a flat circular shape that means that the distance between one southern continent to another is much further as it ‘s spread out. Finck found out that Quantus and South African Airlines have direct flights. Thus the distance is much further, flights are not directly from one country in the Southern Hemisphere to another for a couple of reasons. One, the time it takes will be much longer and thus, make people suspicious; Two, that most planes don’t have the fuel to travel that far; Three, that it’s actually shorter to fly north than what would look like directly on a map. But this can’t be said to the public or they would wake up.
Bill Finck goes on to say, “Bringing in NASA into the flat earth argument brings another distraction; the two subjects have nothing to do with one another.”
Bringing in NASA is NOT a distraction, as they are part of the cover up. Doesn’t Finck know that NASA, of all government departments, should know more about the shape of the earth more than anyone? After all they are involved in putting astronauts and satellites up in space. They are part and parcel of the flat earth issue because it is NASA that puts out fake photos (CGI) and told the lie that we landed on the Moon (do a YouTube search: “fake moon landing” and see this for yourself).
He goes on to say, “There are innumerable proofs that the earth is round,” and he starts off by using the example of the Canary Islands, and that the distance we can see an object depends on what latitude you are at.
First, Finck, in his whole Podcast used only 2-3 arguments that the earth is a globe, yet he said “there are innumerable proofs.” Well, he should give more than three. The “proofs” he gives include his so-called discovery that you can fly directly from Australia to South Africa. Another “proof” is that the distance you can see depends on the latitude you are at along with the altitude and the height of the object you are looking viewing.
Well, here are some other things to consider Finck: What about the spin of the earth? What about the speed we are going through space (no wind outside, yet we are told we are going 67,000mph around the Sun ). What about air planes not having to make any adjustments when landing when the earth is “spinning at 1,000mph”? And many more proofs that the earth is flat that he didn’t address.
Finck points out that Dubay is wrong in when he metioned in his book that (don’t recall the details) that a perosn in the last century saw a light house that was 100 miles away and this would be impossible as the lighthouse whould be over a mile below the line of sight. Finck points out that the figures were wrong because the math figured the sighting at sea level, when it happened about 2,400 feet. Using the same math, the distance that should be seen would be 120 miles; thus it would be expected to see the lighthouse at 100 miles. Now, this sounds good but let’s examine this further. This is something else that Finck conveniently leaves out…
The Mathematics Comes From Globe Earth Scientists
That math that we get for being about seeing from a distance on a round object is using spherical geometry. For a round earth that is 25,000 miles in circumference we are told by mathematicians that the drop off is 8 inches for the first mile, square the distance. With that in mind, here is an experiment you can do; this is based on what was done in the 1870s when one man stood in the Bedford Canal in England, he took a telescope and placed it right above the water line. His friend, in a row boat was 6 miles away. He also had a flag that was 6 feet above the waterline. This canal has a straight 6 mile stretch without any gates that raise and lower the water. Doing the math it works like this: 6 x 6 = 36 x 8 = 288 inches. Divide this by 12 and you get 24 feet.
This man was able to see his friend in the boat and to see the boat down at the water line with his telescope. What this means is that the top of the flag should still be 18 feet below the line of sight; the base of the boat would be 24 feet below the line of sight. It’s impossible for a telescope to see through a hill of water 24 feet high (if you could even make “a hill of water”).
What this means is that both parties were at the exact same level; the distance was 6 miles. What does Finck have to say about this? What do the people who believe in Finck have to say (you heard he had several people in his room who are part of the chat)? What Finck said (about the calculations of this recording of a man in Africa who saw a lighthouse on an island) is wrong; what did he leave out?
Now, this figure of 8 inches square the distance is based on the size of the earth. This figure comes from from people who are mathematicians who believe in the globe earth. So, Finck nor anyone else can say, “These are flat earth believers’ figures.” But, of course, you don’t list the facts IF you are out to “prove” the earth is a globe.
Another guy joins in Finck’s Podcast at this point saying that looking at an object at 20 miles you would have a drop off of .275 percent; this being so minor that people will not be able to notice the curve – being so slight. IF this is true, both he and this other guy ignores an important point and that is: How can you see a ship with a telescope? You can’t. They have to answer this question IF they want to prove their point that the earth is a globe? Telescopes can’t see through water (at least at any great depth, nor can it see through land (if the object was 20 miles away on land). In other words, there would still be a huge distance the ship would be below the light of sight but you can see it with a telescope.
Let’s do the math: 20 x 20 x 8 = 3,200 inches / 12 = 266 feet
That means the ship at sea would be, at its waterline, 266 feet below the line of sight. So, if the ship was 50 feet tall it would still be over 200 feet below the line of sight.
Law of Perspective is how our eyes work. When we look at a row of telephone poles, they get smaller in the distance; when we look at a road that is going straight, the points converge. That doesn’t mean the telephone poles are smaller and small and that doesn’t mean that the road narrows to a point. All of this is based on the Law of Perspective. So, when we see a ship “drop from sight,” it doesn’t mean that it’s beyond the curve of the earth. But if the people are ignorant and kept that way by our government and educational institutions, we are told that, “The ship dropped below the curvature of the earth,” and with the public ignorant, they believe what they are told. Again, let’s go back to (Hosea 4:6) My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge: because thou hast rejected knowledge, I will also reject thee, that thou shalt be no priest to me: seeing thou hast forgotten the law of thy God, I will also forget thy children.
There is some talk in the Podcast of the tectonic plates and when Finck talked earlier about why people who build rail roads don’t take in the curvature of the earth it’s because of the tectonic plates they are dealing with and not the earth. Cuckoo, cuckoo! What a crazy statement. Tectonic plates ARE part of the earth, yet Finck makes out like they are two different things!
To recap, I’d like to make a couple more comments. Finck actually made a blasphemy comment about God – he’s says he “doesn’t give a damn about the shape of the earth.” This is God’s creation he is talking about and he “doesn’t give a damn”?! This is what the Bible calls wilfully ignorant.
Why flat earth should be brought in Bible discussions
There is a very good reason why the flat earth conversation should be brought in to any Bible study, especially Identity Bible study and that is because God talks a lot about the earth itself. Here are just a couple of verses:
1 Chronicles 16:30: “He has fixed the earth firm, immovable.”
Psalm 93:1: “Thou hast fixed the earth immovable and firm …”
Psalm 96:10: “He has fixed the earth firm, immovable …”
Psalm 104:5: “Thou didst fix the earth on its foundation so that it never can be shaken.”
Isaiah 45:18: “…who made the earth and fashioned it, and himself fixed it fast…”
Since we are plainly told that the earth has foundations, it’s fixed and does not move, it means that the earth doesn’t spin, circle the Sun, and, in turn the solar system does not circle the galaxy. We are also told that the earth is God’s footstool. Now, this is not metaphorically talking but literal. What do you think of a “footstool” that is round, spinning at 1,000mph, going around the Sun at 67,000mph, and in turn, going around the galaxy at an incredible 500,000mph! Yahweh God would be using an absolutely wrong word to say earth is His footstool! Can you imagine chasing a footstool like that?
Other Conspiracies and the Flat Earth
William Finck says, in effect, we should not bring in the flat earth discussion with Christian Identity, as this would take us away from the Christian Identity teaching. In addition, it would make the CI message look foolish as people have a belief that anyone who talks about a flat earth is a wacko, a nutter, etc.
Finck is hypocritical, as on his website he has a sub-domain where he has a ton of information on Adolf Hitler and that and that National Socialists were right; that WWII was started by the Allies, and, in general, exposing the other lies told about Hitler. He sees this as OK, yet this does not talk about Identity and in many cases doesn’t talk about other Bible message at all. “So, Mr. Finck, why doesn’t this take the topic away from Christian Idenity?” He can’t have a logical answer for this UNLESS he admits that he is wrong about flat earthers bringing their topic ot the CI people.
You can see Finck’s other section of his main website at: http://mk.christogenea.org/
As you can see, there is another topic, another conspiracy and it has nothing to do with Christian Identity. This is not just a few articles but many, including hour long Podcasts on the topic of Adolf Hitler.
Talking on other conspiracies doesn’t stop there with William Finck, he has one on “Dixie,” – the truth about what happened during the American Civil War ( The War Between the States). “Hey, Finck, this is getting off the topic of Christian Identity. What do you say about that?” You can see this section of his website at: http://dixie.christogenea.org/
I think that what Finck has on his website is good, even though the above two topics are not Christian Identity related.
When people see anything that is pro Hitler, pro Nazi the average brainwashed person on the street will put them in the same “nutter” category as those who believe in the flat earth – but Finck can’t see it, or is it that he doesn’t want to see it?
Should Christian Identity People Put Other Conspiracies On Their Blogs?
I believe that other Christian Identity people who have blogs should put other conspiracies on their site. They should also introduce them if they have a Podcast and even put up YouTube videos, if they have them. But Finck and his followers (or, at least some of his followers) don’t think so. This doesn’t make sense. First, Finck, himself does it (see the links above), but what he is really doing is making an exception – only the discussion of the flat earth is not permitted. This doesn’t make sense.
If you learned about Christian Identity first, and you didn’t know about other conspiracies, you’ll want to know about them. After all, what is the biggest conspiracy there is? That Christ was a Jew, that God’s chosen people are Jews, that the Law was done away with. With the average Christian not knowing about this, it’s only natural they what know other things that kept secret from them.
Then, there are people who learned about other conspiracies and false flag events first, THEN they learned about Christian Identity, as this is another cover up or conspiracy in itself. I, personally have met people coming from both positions. Thus, by having the flat earth as part of your sermon, private discussion or part of your blog goes hand in hand with Christian Identity teaching.
Early Flat Earth Believers
When I say early “flat earth believers,” I don’t mean those of 2,000 years ago but those of the 19th and early 20th Century. You can find some of these newsletters and booklets by going to other flat earth sites; you’ll see that these people were Christians and how the flat earth was talked about in relation to the Bible.
Right In Your Face Conspiracy
I have to laugh at Finck as there is a “right in your face conspiracy” on his website. If you look at the screen shot I took of his website you’ll see a photo of the earth. Take a close look at it and tell me what you see? Obviously Finck didn’t see this. The photo of earth (probably from NASA) shows America as much too large for the earth. Where would there be room for Alaska, and the large country, Canada? Look at South America, where would the bottom half of South America go? There simply is not enough room. This tells you that it can’t be a photo of earth. If this is a computer generated image (CGI), then why is the proportion out? After all, there is suppose to be enough photos of earth to use, so why use a CGI. If, for some strange reason a CGI is used, why? And why can’t they get the proportions right?
The fact is, that this is not a photo of the earth as the earth is not a globe. As to why the CGI image is not accurate, I have an idea on this. There are people who work within NASA who knows the lies they have to cover up, but they also know what happens if they tell the truth. So, what do they do? I think that they are allowing these “slip ups” so that at least the thinking people, those who still use logic, see that a cover up is going on. Yet, because of the intense propaganda we are told, most people can’t spot mistakes like this. Once you realise that the earth is, indeed, flat, you’ll be on guard when you see other “photos” from NASA and astronomers.
Learning The Whole Word
We are told in Holy Bible (2Ti 3:16) All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
In other words, we should study the whole Bible, not just be stuck on one topic or certain books and forget the rest. Sadly, many Christian Identity people do just that – they talk on race, race, race, or the Jews are not God’s chosen people or some other point. There are many other topics we, as Christian Identity people should learn. In the Bible we are told about the earth, sun, moon and stars and if Christians learn more about this, apply logic to it, they would not be fooled into believing the earth is a globe. At least this is what the early Christians done – they believed that the earth was flat. It was not until Copernicus and others changed things around.
When Finck said he “doesn’t give a damn about the shape of the earth,” that was a rotten thing to say. This is Yahweh God’s creation and He talked about the earth SO WE CAN LEARN MORE about it. But, as we have seen, there are people who are wilfully ignorant of His truths.
We have a hard enough time to talk to people about Christian Identity truth, and Finck knows it but what does he do? He makes it harder. I don’t expect you to know this UNLESS you have listened to some of his Podcasts. If you haven’t heard other Podcasts, listen to one or two of them; they are in the archive file for July 2015 (at least one of them) where he talks about White Nationalists (White Nationalist is in the title). Anyhow, he uses the words “animals” when referring to the other races. Now, how many people do you think he’ll convert when they hear that? What if that Podcast was the first one they listen to? Finck uses the lowest terms to describe other races. Sure, Christ referred to some a person as a dog, but was not in the literal sense, it was just to show that they are low – much like we use the word today. In another section of the Podcast he refers to another person who is not Christian Identity person but does believe in race, Finck used words of a method of torture that I don’t even want to repeat here. Now, when you hear someone – even someone you like – use words that doesn’t sit right with you, ask yourself, “Did Christ use those words? Did the Apostles or Prophets use those words?” If the answer is “No,” Then why should some Christian Identity pastors or lay people use them?
God never advocated using torture on our enemies and Christ never used words such words either, so we shouldn’t. You may not like a person for what they done but don’t use words or describe things you’d like to do to him that is non-biblical. Then, what happens if this wasn’t bad enough? The media, the Jews pick this up, write an article and say, “Those Christian Identity people think you are a low down stinking animal,” and they give a quote from your book or website. How many converts do you expect to get? Yes, tell the truth, even it it hurts some listeners but don’t say “you’d like to fry them alive.” (By the way, “Hell” is lie that was started centuries ago, but that is another story.)
In short, watch your language, it’s not just the four-letter words to watch words to that people use.
In closing, check out the flat earth yourself videos yourself. If you have questions, join a flat earth chat room; one such chat room is at: www.cfeministries.freeforums.net
If you don’t believe in the flat earth and you want to argue the point like William Finck, at least become informed on what our position is. If you don’t, you’ll look like a fool in arguing the point. If you don’t have time to check into it, then do it at another time but in the meantime you have ammunition to defend a globe earth model.
Until next time, God bless you and yours.